Today I have my very first guest on the podcast, Dr Bree Hurn. She calls herself the Habit Nerd, and in this episode we have an insightful conversation about not just habits, but identity, time management and even colour-coding. Dr Bree Hurn is a productivity coach, keynote speaker, and host of the top-rating podcast ‘The Habit Nerd’. Bree is a Doctor of Education and uses her research background to communicate the science behind building better habits for work, health and mindset. With 25 years experience in education, Bree has been a teacher, school leader, and literacy expert, before becoming a university lecturer. Bree’s role as wife and mum to two daughters is her biggest motivation for investing her time and energy with purpose, and hopes to inspire others to do the same. Read the transcript of the episode below!

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Natalie: Dr Bree Hearn, thank you so much for joining me on the Live an Intentional Life podcast.

Bree: Thank you so much for having me, Natalie. I’m looking forward to our conversation.

Natalie: Fantastic. So why don’t you tell us a little bit about how you got here, how you became to be the habit nerd.

Bree: Sure. Thanks for that opportunity. So I have a a background in different aspects, a myriad of aspects of education for about 25 plus years. I started out as a teacher, primary school teacher and then went into leadership of literacy and and learning and teaching. I’ve worked and currently still work as an education writer for things like the Herald Sun newspaper and I write teacher materials. Somewhere in there I did a Masters of Education with a focus on leadership and literacy and then back in 2014, I made the move from schools and I became a lecturer in the Faculty of Education at the University of Melbourne and I still, I still work there now.

So in 2019 I enrolled in a full time PhD and that meant that during Melbourne’s notorious lockdown I spent it full time studying, full time working and supervising home learning of my 2 girls who were six and eight at the time. So because that was such a bonkers period, I developed at that time and did a really deep dive into the principles of behavioural science and organisational psychology. I just became really fascinated in how people do their work, how they invest their time and their energy with intention and having a research background was particularly interested in, you know, what the research could tell us about that.

So armed with that interest and after completing my PhD, I knew I wanted to combine my passion for that topic with the credibility that comes from my research skills and something that’s common to all of my work is a desire to help other people. So at that time I launched Know Your Why learning and in this work alongside my university academic work, I coach, write, podcast and I keynote speak about research informed habits to help people work with more efficiency and how to live well in their mindset and in their bodies. So that’s led me to today.

Natalie: Fantastic. So was that what your PhD was on or that was separate?

Bree: No, my PhD is in language and literacy in education, but also in professional learning principles. So that’s kind of helped my work in, you know, research to help other people do their job, you know, in in the in the way that’s going to be most productive for them.

Natalie: And that really informs this stuff, right.

Bree: That’s right, that’s right.

Natalie: Fantastic. So tell us a little bit about habits. What have you learned about being productive, both from your personal experience during the COVID lockdowns, trying to juggle all the things, but also, you know what you’ve learned during the the habit nerd?

Bree: Sure. So habits are basically just settle tendencies. So they’re just a behaviour that, you know, we engage with all day, every day. And they’re more than likely behaviours that we engage in without doing much thinking. So, you know, you brush your teeth every morning without too much thought going into that. It’s just something that’s fairly settled. It’s a tendency that you have to do every day.

But the thing that I think is the most important thing is that habits align with who you are and align with your identity. So the more closely you align with your identity, the more sense a habit will make, and the more likely you are to stay on the path of that identity. If that identity and the behavioural, the behaviour of the habit will help reinforce that identity.

So to give you an example, I have a habit when I’m working of knowing people’s names. So I’ll meet them, I’ll be running a workshop or, you know, a session with people. And it’s really important to me to, once I’ve been introduced to somebody, to learn their name and to remember their name and to use that name throughout the day or throughout the time that we’re working together. Now people often say to me, Bree, you’re so good with names. You always remember people’s names. And it just reminds me that it’s a habit that I have because it aligns with the sort of person that I’m trying to be. And I must have learned somewhere along the line that to know people’s names makes them feel like they matter when you’re working with them, it embeds that, you know, strong, productive relationship with somebody else and then that makes that connection stronger between you and that person so.

That’s something that it’s a habit that I have, but it’s aligned very closely with the sort of person that I’m trying to be in the same way as I have colleagues and friends who say things like I’m terrible with people’s names, so that is aligning with them. It is the story that they’ve told themselves that they’re not good with people’s names, but it’s just that they haven’t created a story for themselves that aligns with an identity of making people feel like they matter and, you know, making people feel like the connection that you’re sharing is of value to you when you’re working with them. So that would be an example of where identity is shaping the sort of habits that somebody’s turning up with.

The my, my gym at the moment have just run an 8 week challenge. And there was eight weeks ago there was a 1K time trial. So one kilometre time trial where the trainers at the gym encouraged everybody to do a run and time themselves and then do the run again at the end of the eight week challenge. Now I don’t identify as a runner. I’m very happy to engage in that and I, you know, really respect that exercise. There were lots of people, lots of my counterparts at the gym who made it a habit of going for a couple of runs every week to be able to change that time for themselves. That’s not something that aligns very necessarily with my identity as being a runner. So I didn’t do that. I went about, you know, moving in the way that was suiting me. And so therefore, it wasn’t a habit that, you know, that ended up having paying any dividends at the end of the eight week challenge in the way that it did lots of my other, you know, counterparts at the gym. So just a couple of examples.

This is probably both a positive one , and you know, one that didn’t end up as a good news story where it’s actually the sort of person that you’re trying to be that will influence the behaviours of the habits that you’re putting in place. So the idea is decide the sort of person you want to be, and then prove that to yourself with small wins.

Natalie: Fantastic. So do you then think that identity and the right mindset are kind of linked and both sort of feed into a habit?

Bree: There’s no, there’s no question. The mindset piece is about awareness and about, you know, a consciousness about the sort of person that, as I say, that you’re trying to be so once. You know that you know that some habits will take more work to embed or break than others and that’s OK. So you know, if I know that I would like to try something new, so in better habits, so start a new habit and that’s something like I don’t know, drinking 8 glasses of water a day because I’m not sometimes I’m not great with hydration. I know that it’s going to be easier for me to have my drink bottle nearby than it is to start a yoga practise, because that’s somewhere where I’d be starting so far back and it’s going to take a few more, a few more steps for me to be able to do that.

So it’s that consciousness of some new habits will be easier for me to embed than others, But that’s about being kind to myself and having that idea of my mindset being what’s realistic and what would need to be put into place so that those habits could become automatic.

Natalie: Yeah. So what would you advise people then in terms of identity and mindset and habit, in terms of what they can actually do to start a new habit and affect that behavioural change?

Bree: The most important thing is that habits should be about how we feel. Not about what we do or don’t do. So even if we start with that piece and somebody has to audit their behaviour as they go throughout a couple of days, they would be doing some things that make them feel good.

And if you feel good, it’s because it feels closely aligned with the sort of person that you’re trying to be or the sort of person that you’re trying to show up as in the world. And if you don’t feel good when you engage in a behaviour, that’s because there’s a conflict there. There’s a cognitive dissonance. So for example, if I want to be the sort of person who values physical fitness and, you know, physicality and Wellness, and I go for a walk, that’s going to feel good. If I’m somebody who values integrity as a value, which I do, and I take a shortcut or I do something a little bit dishonest at work to, you know, try and get something done more quickly, then I will feel yucky because there’s a conflict there against the sort of the sort of person that I’m trying to be. So I suppose the first step is to pay attention to what feels good and what doesn’t feel good.

And then once you’ve got that awareness and that’s that mindset piece and you’re, you’re conscious to that, then it’s about, is it that I need to stop doing something? Or is it that I need to start doing something so if it is the integrity piece for me? And I need to stop making taking shortcuts at work. If that’s something that you know that I’m doesn’t make me feel good, then obviously something needs to change and I need to be mindful of. Putting some, you know, if it’s that I don’t have enough time to do a task and so it’s because I’ve not left enough time, I’ve not scheduled it in my calendar, so therefore I’m taking shortcuts, then that is something that I could stop doing, but I need to replace it with something else. Replacing it would be with a little bit more time for the task, for example.

So it’s about deciding first of all how you want to feel and then what practises would be sort of baby steps. That would be the small wins, the pieces of evidence. That would get you closer to the behaviour that you’re desiring for yourself. So first step is how do you want to feel. Second step is what are the tiny micro steps, the tiny micro habits you could put into place that would get you closer to that version of yourself, that would feel good, basically.

Natalie: That’s such a great tip. Thank you. And have you thought about what people could do if they’re trying to break a bad habit?

Bree: Yeah. So most habits are fairly simple. There is a motivation to either do or not do the habit. There’s a cue that would make it easy or make it hard and then there’s a reward. So if you’re trying to break a habit that’s not desirable. For example, if I sometimes it’s really simple, it’s removing the cue. So if I have got a habit, and this one is true to life of eating chocolate after dinner, now a little bit of chocolate after dinner with my cup of tea is my favourite thing. Sometimes it goes over to more than a little bit and it’ll turn into a lot and then it will affect my sleep. So it’s not, it’s not great. And then it kind of has a roll on effect into the next day because I don’t sleep so well. So that then is about not having the chocolate in the house or it’s about buying a bar of chocolate and not a block of chocolate so that there’s only enough so that I can enjoy it. Because, you know, it’s not about, I’m not about completely banishing something that I love, but it’s simply removing that cue, so taking it away from my consciousness.

The same could be said if you are addicted to your mobile phone, which is a very common story for a lot of us because you know the lines are so blurred between our work and our you know our being able to have our bank on our phone and our kids school apps on our phone and all the things that are tied up in work and life. So it’s very easy to get out of those apps and get into a social media app and then all of a sudden you know you’re feeling regret and you’ve wasted time and you should have been working or whatever so is it removing the cue so having it not near you when you’re working. Is it having it in the drawer? Is it having it in another room? There’s even research to suggest if you put an elastic band horizontally and vertically around your phone, if you pick it up, just the cue of feeling the elastic band to remind yourself I’m doing that mindlessly. That’s not what I want to do. So see, even it’s sometimes just that first cue that needs to be taken away or bought in.

As I said before, if I want to have more water, having my drink bottle in arms reach in front of me in my car, you know wherever I am is going to provide that very simple cue for me to be able to embed that new habit. So sometimes it’s about remembering what the motivation is and then just either embedding a queue or removing a cue. So that would be a really a really good place to start.

If anyone’s to think about the sort of habit that they would like to stop or start, think about what that first cue is and what’s motivating that cue. So if you want to go for a walk first thing in the morning, have your runners at the front door and have what you’re going to wear out ready and that will remove that barrier of you turning the alarm off and staying asleep because it’s just one less hurdle for you to get over, for example.

Natalie: Yeah, perfect, thank you. So I want to switch now and chat a little bit about time management. Do you think that habits and time management are related or maybe one might support the other?

Bree: There’s no question. So going back to the idea that habits are about identity, identity is also really closely linked to values, isn’t it? So, Natalie, I know you’re the same as me, you’re, you know, juggling multi, multi priorities and, you know, mothering alongside working and all of the other things as well. So we are led to invest our time based on our value set. So if I think that values are tied up with identity, then my Sunday afternoon practise where I pour myself my cup of tea and I open up my calendar. I am going to plan out my time, so I’m going to invest my time as best I can in alignment with those values, so the habits that you know, the behaviours that I engage in throughout the week if I want to feel good, because remember it’s about feeling most like myself and feeling good turning up as a person that I want to be in the world as much as I can. Nobody’s perfect, but as you know as as much as I can try and do that, I will schedule in my workouts at 6:00 in the morning because that’s important to me and that helps me show up as a professional, better mum, whatever.

When I get home from that workout, I will schedule in my children’s school pick up and drop off if I can manage it throughout the week a couple of times because that’s really important to me, that I’m there to help with homework and reading once I get home from school, for example. Or there’s a couple of days a week where I’m able to drop them off at the school gate, so that’s in there because that’s a high value of mine.

Another habit that I have is managing my time in that there are, after doing a bit of an audit of my own energy across a couple of weeks, I’ve realised that there are days when my energy lends itself better to sort of deep cognitive work, you know, research, writing for example, as opposed to lighter admin type tasks. So it’s managing OK, well, where are those pockets of time where I would make them green in my calendar because that’s a signal for deep work and it’s one thing at a time. Working in full screen mode, turning off email and admin and just focusing on that. And then it’s about not letting my email inbox take over my whole week. So there’s time scheduled, you know, on the the times of the day or the times of the week where I’m not as fresh, but I’m happier to sort of just work through the inbox, you know, do the admin. So by leading with what’s important in terms of my parenting and the sort of what’s important to me as a person in the world that helps me manage my time across the week.

And managing my time across the week means which behaviours am I going to engage in? And that’s just what habits are. They’re just behaviours that we engage in across a day or across a week.

Natalie: Great, yeah. I want to pick up what you said and that you’re choosing to allocate your time during the week based on your values. And I was going to ask that question around how do you allocate your time? Because as parents, as working parents, we have so many different facets of our life, and you want to be able to fit all of these things in. And people sort of say, oh, we can’t really achieve work life balance. And I wondered if you had a take on that. Like, you’re using your values to guide what you put in your calendar to guide what you’re doing from minute to minute, and is that really your driving force? And how do you plan at your week when knowing that there’s so much to juggle?

Bree: Yeah, and I don’t really resonate the word balance as much as I do the word integration. I think balance for me implies almost like a seesaw and things have to be even. And I just don’t subscribe to that because, you know, I’ve tried it. I’ve tried to give as much time to this as to this. And, you know, life just doesn’t work like that. Sometimes, you know, work demands more of your time. Sometimes, you know, you’ve got the best laid plans to focus on work and then your child’s sick or, you know, you’re not well or something goes wrong. I travel a bit for work, so, you know, the flight gets delayed or you know, something goes over time. So it’s for me, it’s about leading with and, and that’s the reason I do it on a Sunday. So before time, before time takes over me, I try and have, you know, try and lead the week as best I can.

I like to colour code things because then I feel like I’ve got a sense of empowerment over the week as opposed to the week running me. I also feel if I get to the end of the week on a Friday afternoon and I’m really exhausted, which is because we have lives where there’s, you know, a lot of priorities that are being managed. I’m tired for the right reasons. I’m not tired and resentful, you know, because there was enough yellow in there. Because yellow on my calendar is the kids activities. And it means that I got to gymnastics. I dropped them at netball training, you know, and I was able to watch 2 netball matches on the Saturday that was in there already.

The blue is things that get put in my calendar without me having anything to do with that. So that’s people booking meetings with me, teaching at work or things that, you know, non negotiable for my work. So that’s in there. And if there’s plenty of blue, it means that I feel that sense of integrity that I’m showing up to do my work and the work that I’m being paid to do in that role. If there’s lots of green, it feels good because I’ve LED with my deep work and needing to get through my to-do list in a way that is important to me and prioritising that in a way that’s important to me.

And the pink, which is my favourite colour, pinky purple is the me time. So it’s the health, it’s the self care, it’s the going out for dinner with a girlfriend, it’s the doing things that are helping me show up as the sort of person that I want to be. Some weeks the colours are a bit off, some weeks are more yellow, some weeks are more blue. But just understanding that we’ve all got the same 24 hours in the day. So for me, the different colours helps with a few things. It helps me, as I said, feel a sense of empowerment. It helps diminish that feeling of resentment that you know, that I didn’t get a chance to, you know, catch up and then I was sort of just overrun with a snowball of things that weren’t of my doing.

But the last thing that the the colour coding in the calendaring does for me is it makes me less have less decision fatigue because you know when a meeting gets cancelled and you’ve suddenly got an hour and you don’t know what to do with that hour. And all of a sudden it’s the overwhelm of I’ve got 15 things I could start that, no, that’s not really enough time. I could do all of that task, but actually that’s probably better backed off the end of this task. So all of a sudden 15 minutes goes by, oh my God, I’ve just wasted that time.

So for me, having it scheduled means that when there’s nothing, there’s nothing. And I don’t feel guilty about there being nothing. You know, that’s time to watch a series on the couch with my husband or it’s time to read a book or listen to a podcast or just be because I know that I have led my week in the best way that I can and had all of my priorities as best as I can manage on a given week in there. So it takes as I say that decision fatigue and it makes more sense to do that than to not do that because then it’s funny, with routine for me comes calm.

Natalie: I love all of that. We’re very similar. I love the colour coding and like you say, you can just look at it and see instantly what types of things that you’ve done and I just think that’s so important. That’s a fabulous tip. You mentioned before as well that you may be on a Sunday evening, kind of pull out your planner and plan your week. Can you maybe talk us through the process? Does it take a long time to do? Like does it feel really onerous or you’re only doing it once a week? What’s the process there?

Bree: Yeah. So I try and do it on a Sunday afternoon. If I know we’ve got a busy Sunday afternoon, it’s it’s OK if it’s Sunday morning. I do try and do it on a Sunday because a Saturday I want completely for my family and I don’t want to worry about the week coming. That’s kind of the Sunday thing. I also don’t resent it. I have to, I have to be honest. I think I’ve done that habit stacking thing of putting something not so pleasurable with something pleasurable. So I go somewhere quiet. I sit in my study, I make myself a cup of tea, I open my computer and I quietly put it in. And there’s something about that visualisation of things happening and unfolding in a way that’s moving the needle closer to you know, something that is important to me. A goal I’m working towards, for example, that really does give me a sense of calm and peace.

The only thing that does sometimes upset the apple cart is if I don’t know my family’s schedule, at the time where I’m working on my own. So my husband’s a school principal most of his day to day. I mean, he works long hours, but he works a lot of evenings. And sometimes things will come up that he doesn’t know about. You know, he gets invited to something at the last minute or, you know, there’s an emergency that he has to act upon. So I just have to be as much as I possibly can. I’d go for the 80-20 rule, 80% planned and 20%, you know, flexible that, you know, things might not turn out in the best way that, that, that I would hope that they would. So yes, it takes about 30 minutes if I do it properly.

And then the last step of that I can’t remember, I want to credit the right person and I, I will be able to look it up. I learned in Amantha Imba’s book Timewise about the open close list. Now that’s just a document that I have on my top, it’s at the top corner of my desktop and the open list is the left hand side. And that’s every task I have to do, work, family, whatever. It’s just it’s a dump. And so it’s a long, long list. The closed list is the three things that are a priority for that week. And so sometimes they’re big things. So it’ll be 3 will be a maximum.

Sometimes the three tasks can be broken into one of the tasks can be sort of broken into 16, say, for example, preparing for a podcast. It might be reading a couple of chapters of a book, you know, looking at somebody’s Instagram, coming up with some questions, for example. But the idea is that my open and closed list is my open list relieves the cognitive load that it is written down. So it is somewhere other than in my brain. And then the closed list is that this is what needs to happen next because there’s most time sensitivity there. Or they are the things that sort of mean the most. And the the final thing about the open closest is, it’s therefore on that rare occasion, as I say, when a meeting gets cancelled or I’m in a doctor’s waiting room and it’s I’m running late, I can just pull that up and there are a whole range of tasks that I can go, oh, I’ve got half an hour, just knocked that one over.

So it’s instead of going, what should I do? There’s so much my head’s so full. Our heads are always full, it it helps to dump it somewhere. And I mean, people could talk all day long about to do lists and strategies that you know, they’ve got, but for me, that open and closed list works because the open list is everything and the closed list is not until those things come off to something else move across.

So I, I do my calendar with the colour coding and I am governed by the open and closed list as to what goes on that calendar for that week.

Natalie: Oh, that’s fantastic. So the open list is really like a huge to do list and then you’re really prioritising what’s important to you for that week on the closed list and then popping it into your calendar because giving it a time means that you know that it’s going to get done, you know how long it’s going to take, you know, if you have time for it and it’s on there when it comes to that time of the week, you know what’s next? And like you say, it’s going to reduce that cognitive load. I love that. And you know, some people say doing a huge belong to do list can feel overwhelming. But actually, I think because what you’re doing is you’re taking all of those things that are on your mind out of your working memory, which is one of our cognitive functions and putting it out of your brain, having it there, for easy reference. Right, that sounds like you’ve really utilised those skills really well.

Bree: Yeah, I, I do split it into my university work and then my business work. I’d have those two things as separate because I feel like if I muddle up the, the, the two priorities, that can get a little bit overwhelming. But it’s funny, I am quite comfortable to have life admin in there as well. It doesn’t worry me or as I know some people like to have that completely separate, you know, things for the family and you know, take the dog to the vet and booking the parent teacher interviews and all that.

I’m, I’m happy to have that on that list because for me, I understand that, as I said, integration life happens alongside work. You know, so I think I saw on was it on your Instagram with Sunday yesterday and you said today’s a work day for me that that really resonates with me because I think that’s the other thing I should say about the calendar when you are juggling multi, multiple passions. And you’ve got family a Saturday evening there is absolutely nothing wrong with if you have no other plans on a Saturday evening and your energy is fine sitting down and doing some work because that is taking control and leading your life in a way that suits you rather than feeling guilty that Oh my God, it’s Saturday night. How depressing that I would be working when everybody else is out. Maybe they are, maybe they’re not. It’s actually that’s beside the point and I really, I learned that when I was writing my thesis actually, that it would be 10:00 on a Saturday night and it would be something really calming about the quiet and the fact that nobody else needed me at that time and that I could be really focused. That really did take that pressure off work having to fit into a nine to five box set that simply doesn’t serve someone like me and, and like you, I’m assuming with businesses and work and family.

Natalie: That’s exactly right. And, you know, on any given day, seven days a week, not just Monday to Friday, I’m doing work. I’m looking after the kids. I’m doing something for myself. I’m doing something, you know, in terms of looking after the home. I’m integrating, like you say, all of those things. And quite often on a Sunday afternoon, I’m working because that’s a really quiet time for me. My husband will spend time with our baby at that time. Two of our kids are at their dad’s and it’s actually a much quieter time of the week. And I go, oh, hang on, I’m going to do some really deep work, some, some work, not some necessarily relaxing or resting or things like other people might be doing on a Sunday. And I am actually using that time for what I want to do, which is to work, which is work.

Bree: Yeah, not some work over and takes some things off the to do list. And it’s about, it’s about really zooming out on those sort of micro opportunities, as you say. You know, the Sunday afternoon might be where you’re unusually compared to other people or, you know, compared to sort of society’s norms, quiet and able to do some focus. For me, it’s sometimes it’s that really strange time between like 7:00 AM and 8:00 AM, you know, before you need to sort of start the school rush, but you’ve been up and you’ve gotten yourself organised. That’s sort of a dead moment there where if I have got myself really organ ised, and I think that’sanother tip as well, if I need to read a research article, I will have it up or I’ll have it printed out with my highlighter there ready, you know, and I know that that’s what that hour is allocated to and that I want to have read and made notes on that article by the time I get to, you know, leave for work or or take the girls to school, for example.

Whereas I think other people would see that 7:00 AM till 8:00 AM is just dead time where you would just spend an extra hour preparing lunches or an extra hour, you know, walking around the house. And it’s like that stuff’s never going anywhere. So, you know, you may as well do something more productive while your energy is good and you’ve had your coffee and, and whatever it is.

So yeah, for me, it’s I was really glad I saw your post yesterday because I thought, oh, that’s so important for people to understand that, you know, what is it 268 hours in a week or whatever it is, You could design that however you want and however that suits you and your family. We need to really stop with the working on a Sunday, how depressing. Or, you know, because that’s I’m choosing that, I’m choosing that because it means on a Tuesday at 12 PM I can, you know, go to my daughter’s school assembly, for example, and that’s my choice. That’s a sense of empowerment.

Natalie: Absolutely, 100% agree with you there. This has been fantastic. Have you got anything else that you wanted to add in terms of habits or time management or productivity?

Bree: Well, I don’t think so. I think we’ve covered a lot of ground. I suppose just as we emerge, you know, into a new year just to instead of instead of thinking about. I’m so bad at things and I need to start doing this. Think about how is it that I want to feel this year? How is it that I want to feel in 2025? Is there a word or is there a theme that might govern how I want to feel? And then set some intentions just around that. Not New Year’s resolution so much, but just intentions around how it is that you want to feel. So if you want to feel more energy, then it’s about what are the small micro behaviours that you know you might embed or stop so that you know your energy is what you want it to be. It might be a little bit more sleep or it might be more hydration, or it might be just sitting in, you know, an extra couple of walks around the block that week or whatever. But just be governed by the way you feel, because when you feel good, as as I said at the start of the chat, it’s because you are most yourself and it’s because you’re most aligned with what makes you feel alive and the person that you want to be.

Natalie: That’s really motivating. Thank you. Can you tell our listeners where they can find you, Bree.

Bree: Sure. So they can find me on Instagram over at Habit Nerd. That’s where I’m probably most active.

So I have my own podcast as, as you said, called Habit Nerd, where I interview experts like yourself, Natalie, and also do solo episodes every second week.

I’m diving into all aspects of, as I said, research informed habits for mindset, for productivity and for health and yeah, I look forward to connecting with your audience on the podcast and over on Instagram.

Natalie: And I’ll put all of those in the show notes as well. Thank you so much, this has been such a valuable conversation. Listeners, I’m going to end with my favourite quote, it’s by Mary Oliver. Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life? See you next time.

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